NOW Art Founder Carmen Zella sat down with artist Refik Anadol for a live conversation about public art and LUMINEX 3.0 on Instagram (@nowart_la). RSVP here for future LUMINEX Artist Talks.
Below is a transcript of the video:
Carmen Zella (CZ): Hello. This is Carmen Zella. I’m super excited. We’re having a live IG talk with Refik Anadol, who’s going to be one of the artists at Luminex.
Hi, Refik, are you there? So good to see you!
Refik Anadol (RA): Yeah so good to see you! Can you hear me? This Wi Fi is good?
CZ: Yeah. Yeah, we can hear you. Hi! How’s everything in Istanbul? Nice to see you.
RA: Nice to see you as well from Istanbul. How are you?
CZ: I’m really good. Yeah. We’re in our final week of getting everything set up for Luminex. So super excited that you’re gonna be one of the participating artists again, sad that you’re not gonna be here live, but we will be representing you from the streets of LA.
RA: Thank you very much. So excited all as always in Luminex and one of the best public art in installations, couple of years now, so I’m so happy to be back again and share more work.
CZ: I know, this is really exciting. So I have so many questions that I want to ask you. It’s always exciting to track and see what you’re up to in the world. Right now you’re in Istanbul, but everyone is buzzing back here in Los Angeles with the announcement of DATALAND.
RA: Yes. Finally!
CZ: I know. So I really want to start off having a conversation about it because DATALAND is in downtown Los Angeles. And so I want to talk a little bit about this project, so can you bring me up to speed on, it’s been several years in the works and it’s going to be the world’s first museum of AI. So what brought you into this idea? Tell me about your journey to get here.
RA: So first of all, I’ve been working with AI almost eight years and really very grateful that our work has been recognized by incredible institutions like MoMA and I’m working for Guggenheim Bilbao and many others.
It was really this realization of the medium itself is so challenging. I think when people think about AI arts, like people don’t really realize that how pretty much challenging it is to train the model, collect data, and after that there is more work on training data, on training AI with data is not just one step.
After that, there is artistic computation, and then imagination, and then finding canvas. There’s all that layers of imagination. And I think it’s really challenging for artists like myself and many others that, finding this medium as like a place where you can experiment with, because at MoMA it was incredible, of course, to put our artwork on a major scale, but it was so challenging like I didn’t have a chance to experiment somewhere else. I didn’t have a chance to try things and because the scale and the context and the technique is so complex that you go live to like suddenly you had all these incredible possibilities, but these years of experience teach me that it’s really very important for experiments.
So number one is experiments. And second is of course, literally finding a way to create a space for more interventions, more experiments. Working with data and AI and real time inferencing with AI, and then again, real time computer graphics, amazing sound experiments and other experiments.
I just felt that we just need a place to experiment, first of all. And on top of that, the medium is very new. I think collecting AI art is something exceptionally challenged. Like collecting AI art is not a video. Not just computer, not just software, like it’s a living artwork and collecting a living artwork is something very different than any institution right now is going through.
So I was with incredible people from the Getty Preservation team in LA. And I met with, again, incredible people at MoMA. And I always felt that there is not any place to really think about and talk about this, like how to preserve AI art, like how to collect AI art and then on top of that as I’ve been in love with architecture for many years, for 16 years, I always wait a moment with my team and also my partner, what will happen if we design the space, the canvas from scratch?
What will happen if we can truly embed the media, the technology into the space? That is not necessarily like a ready made space or fill a wall or a room, but truly imagine what will be an ultimate canvas with the ultimate technology. This all leads to us like an institution
CZ: This is what we’re going to see with DATALAND?
RA: Yes. It will be an exceptional quality architecture, exceptional quality technology. Exceptional quality, I will say AI research, because I’m so proud to say for two years, we spent incredible time to collect data ethically. We didn’t rush for a speed. We are not like a startup. We are art studio. That means that our ethos are very different than current AI debates.
And we just really spent our time to kindly and nicely ask for permission for data. And on top of it, we work very closely with Google and Nvidia friends over the years that we want to bring that incredible relationship to next level. For example, at Google, we have very fortunate to work with the cloud team that we are exactly computing and recording our compute energy usage, meaning that we have a very sustainable approach, meaning we are able to use Oregon, for example, there’s an incredible cloud compute possibilities that is using renewable energy, meaning it’s not harmful for nature.
Because it will be I think, weird to train AI on nature by harming nature. So that will be, like, absolutely a weird idea. And on top of that we spent some time, at least almost six months, developing a special back end. We have so much exciting development. And also we were at two days ago, I was at New York and United Nations.
So our research recognized by the General Secretary and it was an incredible time to, to see like basically, we don’t want to be a first, but be right about AI. That’s what we are trying to say.
CZ: From a really ethically sensitive position.
RA: Yes very.
CZ: And creating that standard, because you are a first, I think really will have a lot of impact in how AI is being looked at, considered. Approached. That’s really incredible. So the museum sounds like it’s not just a sort of a typical museum, but it’s going to have a strong educational component. I can see how there was a challenge in titling such a place. Because, there is the art perspective, but it goes beyond that.
RA: Yes, and also one important part why we choose the museum word is not only just collecting art or displaying art, but also teaching the practice. Learning systems are very important in the age of AI. I’m teaching at UCLA for 10 years, but I do believe that the idea of teaching in the age of AI has completely changed.
And one of the reasons we create this large nature model is I always think our AI research is like a form of encyclopedia, like a book, like a very divine wisdom book of nature. And I feel like it’s very important to teach this book, teach like these techniques. And then we just realized, okay, but we have a learning program.
We are collecting art and we are displaying art. That’s like not a simple institution. There’s not like a some random warehouse with a bunch of projectors or something like that. There is more than that. And then on top of that, we have an AI foundation, which is non profit, which will be helping DATALAND to support underprivileged or people who couldn’t maybe afford the tickets or who cannot maybe afford the AI usage.
Like we are trying to create this accessible place starting in Los Angeles and hopefully around the world. So we have much more like a bigger dreams to be sure, it’s just not another simple idea. So it’s when we put them all together, we found that just a moment, that’s called museum.
That’s like what museum does for humanity.
CZ: So then talk to me a little bit about, I love the initiative of being able to, support education with youth and potentially even adults, but talk to me about like that for a second, because you have such, now you’re going to have a museum in Los Angeles. We know your relationship as Turkish, and Istanbul, which you’re at right now, and Los Angeles.
Our passion of having you live at Luminex on the streets of LA is really because you’re approaching the public at such an authentic, in such an authentic way, at the street level, and you’re projecting these incredible artworks that, you know, even though there’s a lot of access into museums, and museums are free and, not everybody even happens upon going into a museum. There’s still that barrier of entry.
And your support of the city of Los Angeles as an artist is extraordinary, not only in giving an international stage, but now it seems like also in a grassroots level with your foundation, making sure that there’s an educational component.
And we know that there is that barrier for a lot of kids. Tell me a little bit about the project that you’re going to be showcasing in LA, which is called Artificial Realities: California Landscapes.
There’s so many beautiful aspects to this project, but like 153 million publicly available landscapes, so I could see the amount of work that goes into even the architecture of these of these artworks. Can you talk a little bit about why you selected that piece for Luminex and, just a little bit about your association?
RA: Yes. So I think, first of all, as I guess Angelino, many people, I hope, that likes to go to nature.
Especially I will say in the pandemic, one of the big question was we could go to nature, but can nature come to us? And I think since then, I just cannot forget how important, how beautiful California landscapes are. So as a studio, we collect this very exciting data set of like national parks in California and just look at the beauty of the nature.
And for this reason, I think the project was first displayed at the Jeffrey Deitch Gallery last year. We had a beautiful response from I would say the thousand people were coming together. It was a very fascinating response. So the artwork was first displayed there. And the idea was really trained an AI model on the California landscapes and create this new painting series.
And just appreciate the beautiful of sunset, sunrise, flora, fauna, fungi of the natural forest. And then it just, the art would look so beautiful, like the nature itself. The artwork captured the beauty, and then it’s just literally turned into this series of imaginations. So the artwork is displaying the beauty of I will say, the natural, historic natural parks and the history of, I will say, hiking culture and nature culture in California.
And also try to remember that, in the age of AI, nature is our most important thing. I think if you look at the old AI studies at the moment, if you look at ChatGPT, Gemini, Claude, and all that stuff, they’re incredible systems, but they all focus on human reasoning and human intelligence.
But I do believe that the most important thing we have, and the most intelligent thing we have, is nature. And I felt that we somehow miss the chance of being the voice of nature. It’s this attempt, this is like a kind of a positive call, for us to remind us that without nature, we have nothing, and I think this is the reason.
CZ: Sorry, your statement says basically how human machine collaborations can help us experience nature in a new light.
RA: Yes and I really feel that it is possible, that a kind of a digital ecology is possible. And I think it’s not about replacing nature. It’s not about saying that we are copying pasting nature.
It’s about understanding nature. It’s about like just respecting and loving more nature. So it’s just, also not so different when in the past Monet inspired from the atmosphere or, lilies or like the nature. I feel like for an artist right now it’s the same thing. So we are still like creating this painting series, sculpture series, but really using the nature itself as an input for AI and just dream through this thinking brush.
So I think it’s just very similar mindset. So it’s just a different technique.
CZ: And also too, the selection of this particular piece in an urban setting. So in Luminex we’re seeing all of this infrastructure and architecture of downtown with concrete and buildings and, your selection of bringing a nature piece into that environment on a 200 foot wall by 80 foot wall, for this moment in time for the public to experience.
Yeah, there’s a lot of celebration that can happen, with the footage of just seeing this insertion, but still with that palette and that human articulation, because it’s not just, it’s this creative influx. So you’re putting a lot of emotion, even though it’s this AI generated.
So can you talk a little bit about like, when you’re selecting how these images are manipulated, is it really like, you really get drawn to symphonies and symphatic music, which accompanies your work oftentimes, but I feel like in some way, like you yourself, your emotions are like the instrument that is created, but I’d love to understand a little bit about your selection process there.
RA: Yeah. It’s very accurate. I think, so when you think about AI training process, it really starts with data. And I think data is the reality for AI dreams, which is the memories. And I think we spend sometimes six months for data collection. Sometimes we spend one year for training AI. So there’s not like a magic button for making art with AI.
So it’s a lot of work, a teamwork. And then that really brings this attention of what that AI is capacity of itself. What can it say? What can it see? What can it feel? What can it, what type of colors and patterns and forms and moments can achieve in that possible dreams of AI. So there’s so much possibilities in this research phase.
And once the research is ready and once the AI is ready, then I think the art making starts, which is the arts computation. So in my work, I would say now, 16 years, that I just believe that if one day data becomes a pigment, I don’t think it needs to dry. It can just doesn’t dry like a non-Newtonian space.
It doesn’t have a physical limitations off like our physical quality of life. It can just survive in any like a weather conditions. So it’s just this different type of thing with pigmentation. And for the brush side, I always think that we have a thinking brush that doesn’t forget what that specific topic means.
So it’s just blending those together. And also for the sound experience, we are using data sonification, meaning the movement and the color and the form of the piece generates special soundscapes. So we are literally, what we see is what we hear, what we hear is what we see. There is this symbiotic relationship between the sound and the video.
So that’s also the last part. And when they all come together, I think it creates this very special, very sometimes spiritual, sometimes emotional, a new type of painting.
CZ: I definitely think that you’ve hit on something because of the popularization of your work. You’re hitting people’s emotions in such a poignant way.
And so I do feel like even though there is a reliance on computing, it’s really still targeting something that is innately, human and organic. So it’s that energy between those two things that you’ve been able to articulate in a way that almost nobody has so far. So congratulations for that.
RA: Thanks so much. Thank you for hosting us again. Thank you for the entire Luminex team, Arup team, and everyone who is putting together time to put this beautiful, as always, as I always say, the best art form is public art. I think it’s the best form of art. I hope every artist can explore the beauty of being on the street because public art means that there is no beginning, no end, no door, no wall, no ceiling.
It’s just like life it is. And I think it is absolutely incredible to think that, I believe that’s the best form of art. The most challenging one, but the best form of art. So thank you for hosting us. Thank you for making it happen.
CZ: We can’t do it without artists like you, so we really appreciate it.
We will take a lot of great documentation and for anyone who hasn’t yet looked into it, October 5th, Luminex, Los Angeles, Refik Anadol is at site 7. Awesome.
RA: Like a Blade Runner, but positive Blade Runner!
CZ: Exactly. So good to see you. Thank you for joining.
RA: Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you for everyone again at Luminex and everyone in LA. Hopefully you enjoy the piece. So good to see you.
CZ: Thank you.
RA: Bye. Thank you.